Abortion...

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Phara
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Postby Phara » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:01 pm

Abortion


//discuss
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AliceElite
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Postby AliceElite » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:03 pm

Best self-care I ever did for myself. 100% for it for 100 million reasons.

End.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:08 pm

AliceElite wrote:Best self-care I ever did for myself. 100% for it for 100 million reasons.

End.

best summation I think I've seen. I love that you refer to it as self care.... a point missed by so many.
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TeaWrecks
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Postby TeaWrecks » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:19 pm

I suppose I'm of the opinion that it's ultimately the woman's choice. Regardless of any other factors, it's up to that woman as to whether or not she wants to carry that child to term.

I've been the guy in the "surprise you're pregnant the fuck you gon' do?" dynamic. Honestly at the time I would have dealt with the hardship an unplanned kid had so that our existing little boy had a sibling closer to his age. But she wasn't in a place where that would have been healthy for her mentally, and keeping my existing family in good health is more important than expanding it.

What I mourned was the potential of having another kid and regret at having to wait longer to get that. I didn't feel guilt or anything as though we'd ended a life. But I recall, our first kid didn't really feel like an actual thing that *I* could observe until 2nd trimester or whatever. I struggled to find a connection to her being pregnant because from the outside I couldn't really tell physically.

So I guess my point is, until that embryo has developed to anywhere near a point that anyone else has a connection with that "person", it's entirely a connection between that embryo and the woman it's in. If it takes the father a while to even really feel like there's something there, why should it be anything but the mother's feelings that matter?

tl;dr - Pro-choice camp, I guess.
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AliceElite
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Postby AliceElite » Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:57 pm

I love you so much, ben. So so much, thank you for being the best. <3 <3
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TeaWrecks
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Postby TeaWrecks » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:31 pm

It's cool, I don't have to try too hard. :) Oddly enough just being a decent human is enough to also 90% of being a good partner.
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PhlawlessPhelon
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Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:18 am

So, being the criminology guy. I would like to point out the strong evidence that legalized abortion is heavily linked to Reductions in crime rates. Below is the paper that started the debate, but many papers have tried to analyze it since. This crime drop effect can even be observed in other nations such as England and Wales, so it is not limited to America.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf
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Postby AliceElite » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:24 am

^^^ that.
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Feydakin
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Postby Feydakin » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:52 am

Bottom line is, no one should be able to dictate to you what to do with your body. Period. The discussion can stop right there as far as I'm concerned. I am speaking for the USA particularly; Especially if your reasoning is for religious dogma. Freedom of religion in the USA should also be freedom FROM religion. It seems to me that separation of Church and State includes no legislation via church dogma, aka you can't make laws based on your religious beliefs. It goes against the basic tenets of freedom that the country was founded on. This also covers mandatory health care by the way, so Obamacare can suck it too... ;)
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AliceElite
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Postby AliceElite » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:33 pm

This is an important issue to me so I'm bumping this.

Personally for me this even comes down to, if you can't support my right to choose what to do with my body, you aren't supporting me as a person at all. At that point corpses have more control over their body than I have over mine - people can say what happens to their DEAD bodies and that gets listened to more than what I want to do with mine? Organ donation SAVES LIVES but we still give people the RIGHT TO CHOOSE what they do with their corpse.
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Postby Shumaza » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:56 pm

regardless of feeling *because it's her body and not anyone else's choice* we are massively over populated as a species...why should we be bringing unwanted children into the world. not to mention the fact that we have far to many children already in the system without a home.. granted they may be the best thing to happen to these people but more likely they will be children that are resented and treated like shit by parents who were not prepared or even wanted them... fucking religion.
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Postby Philly » Sun May 01, 2016 5:03 am

I personally couldn't go through with an abortion. But I feel like thats me, my choice. I don't look differently towards the people who choose abortion. I don't really care what their reasons are. I'm kinda confused on why some circumstances such as rape & incest are considered "OK" whereas, broken condoms & other reasons are not. Like in my head, considering abortion is heavy enough why do they need to explain themselves?
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Postby Brewtality » Sun May 01, 2016 9:25 am

Like Feydakin said, nobody should be able to tell you what to do with your own body. I don't think anybody who goes through an abortion takes it lightly but it's often the right choice for people who may not feel able to properly care for and raise a child. There is an argument for carrying the term through and giving the child up for adoption but giving up a fully-realised child who you have carried for 9 months, given birth to, touched, heard, smelled connected with can be incredibly damaging emotionally. Besides, there are plenty of children who never get adopted.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Thu May 05, 2016 1:51 pm

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bigsexywzp
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Postby bigsexywzp » Thu May 05, 2016 3:45 pm

I used to be a "pro-life" kind of person. Then I had a child. An unplanned child. An unplanned child that we couldn't afford, at a time when I wasn't married and wasn't really planning on it. Then I got a glimpse into the hardship that an unexpected pregnancy could place onto someone if they had no choice but to bring it to term.

We chose to go through with it anyway. I didn't want her to have an abortion, but I told her that I would stand by whatever decision she made. I knew that we would have family supporting us on both sides. I was working full time, with decent job prospects in the future. So I knew we would eventually get where we wanted to be. It would just be a struggle in the beginning.

But I was lucky to have all that. Others aren't that lucky.

I still struggle with the issue. It took a lot to overcome my conservative, Christian upbringing and really dwell on this topic in a reasoned, rather than emotional, manner. I do believe there should be limitations on abortion, but nothing as severe as what the right tries to impose. Viability, to me, has been the most appropriate limitation on abortion. It takes the scientific and medical capabilities into consideration, as well as the philosophical, religious, and emotional advocacy.

Boiled down to the barest of discussions? This is an issue of competing rights to life and self-ownership.

The woman owns her body. She has all authority to decide what goes on within it. She has every right to reject chemo for cancer treatment, for example. She also has every right to reject the claim a fetus makes on her womb for 9 months. It is her body. She has the right to decide whether or not she will allow that fetus to be housed within her womb.

On the flipside? The fetus has a right to its life. It is an individual. It has some level of sentience. It has its own DNA and organs. No one can claim ownership over its life. Arguably, since it is an individual, no one has the moral or legal authority to take it away.

During an unwanted pregnancy? These two fundamental rights are in conflict with one another. The fetus can't claim ownership over the womb, the mother has no right to deprive the fetus of its life. We can't preserve both. Someone is going to have their rights violated. Viability, to me, has been the best compromise so far. 25 weeks is more than enough time to make a decision as to whether or not you will bring a fetus to full term. After this point? The fetus has a more than 50% survival rate outside the womb at this point. More than 50%, and with limited risk of permanent severe disability. Abortion should, at the point of viability, no longer be an option except in cases of extreme emergency. We should, instead, seek to have an early delivery and house the unwanted child in a neo-natal unit until it can go into a foster home or be adopted by a family.

Of course, this doesn't solve the numerous problems of rape, molestation, or abuse within the foster system.

I think one place that the "pro-life" (actually anti-choice) movement fails at? Finding alternatives outside of passing new laws. Investing their money into building alternatives, rather than lobbying to pass more restrictions. How much more good could their money be if it were used to improve neo-natal technology, or better fund the foster/adoption/orphanage system?

One of the greatest solutions to this entire issue that no one talks about? Has been that of artificial wombs.

Artificial wombs would be a medical advancement that would make abortion a non-issue. Dealing with an unwanted pregnancy would be as simple as removing a fetus, placing it in an artificial womb, where it can then fully come to term and then be adopted as a fully developed infant.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/artificial-wombs-are-coming-and-the-controversys-already-here
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Postby Shumaza » Thu May 05, 2016 5:32 pm

i think the idea of artificial wombs used to bring unwanted fetus's to term is a horrible, horrible idea...
We already have a foster/orphan problem in this country and the entire world, not to mention our insane over population crisis. The last thing we need is more mouths to feed. I'm sorry but once you get the concept of god and sentiment out of the way it's simple.

Unwanted babies shouldn't be born.

It's only exacerbating societies problems and quite frankly the good of the collective is more important than the backwards sentiment of pro lifers. It's not an argument of competing ideologies. It's simple math and you can't argue with that.

Pro lifers will never reverse roevwade, it's just not going to happen. They will chip at it but it's never going to crumble so you are right that they should invest all of their efforts in alternatives beyond "hey kids, just don't ever had sex until you are married" that's just stupid.
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bigsexywzp
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Postby bigsexywzp » Thu May 05, 2016 5:43 pm

our insane over population crisis


Overpopulation? In what way?

https://www.pop.org/content/debunking-myth-overpopulation
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Zombie
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Postby Zombie » Thu May 05, 2016 9:27 pm

It's something to be thought about at every crossroad.. It's an option that should be available but not taken lightly it's not a nice thought when you sit down and dwell on it which I think is part of the reason for the highly emotional conflict
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Shumaza
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Postby Shumaza » Fri May 06, 2016 1:32 am

Do you know how much land mass we use in this country alone for livestock? i'm not just talking about housing or ranging. i'm talking about crop acres. over 50% of our corn growth in this country is purely for livestock feed. In a few more generations we will not have enough land mass to supply for our countries meat or dairy consumption. We are tearing down a football field sized swath out of the rain forest an HOUR simply to make more land for livestock and farming. We DO have to many people on this planet and we are increasing that rate every single year.
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AliceElite
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Postby AliceElite » Fri May 06, 2016 3:48 am

Stepping in to keep it on topic. I'm on mobile right now but overpopulation is a separate issue, make a separate thread to discuss it.
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